Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 16, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

First, to go over the situation: ArenaNet plans on raising the level cap in Guild Wars 2 or removing it completely. One developer talked of "It is certain that you will be leveling your character over hundreds of hours." (Hundreds of hours. Character in the singular. Note those two things.) They believe that 'many players want higher levels than 20' - personally, when I take a stroll through a Guild Wars town and ask what the opinion on it is, most like it at 20, so I'm not sure where their statistics are from; perhaps they were in World of Warcraft.

But that's what they're planning:

Unnecessary high level cap.
Hundreds of hours of grinding.
Focus on one character, apparently meant to punish those who like multiple equal characters.

So, we have made ourselves aware of the situation.

Now, in hopes that an ArenaNet developer will read this, I have a few objections to the raising of this level cap.

- Firstly, 20 levels are fine as it is; they allow players to quickly reach full game content. Granted it takes longer in games like Prophecies, but still much quicker than in the high-cap games like World of Warcraft.

- Secondly, a high or infinite level cap doesn't bring anything to the game beyond epeen stroking. It really doesn't, aside from perhaps bringing an increased difficulty in balancing.

- It will cause increased discrimination in Pickup Groups. Not only are Pickup Groups in Guild Wars already overwhelmingly hostile and rude, they are also in the perfect mindset to go into level elitism. Even if the statistical advantage disappears after a certain point, they'll still assume it equals skill. And here I thought ArenaNet wanted to encourage playing with other humans.

- Difficulties for those of us who play multiple characters. Hundreds of hours of leveling to reach max level? Say that's 200 hours. 200x8=1600 hours, just as a hypothetical amount of time, to level up 8 characters. Possibly powerleveling grind would be faster, but then that's grind, which doesn't belong in Guild Wars. Suppose there is no cap? Well that pretty much kills off the idea of playing multiple characters with any regularity.

ArenaNet, if a dev should chance to read this and bring it to your attention, please consider the following course of actions.

1 - Release the statistics on the poll you did that told you a majority of players wanted higher levels, and not just the small trickle of WoW trolls.

2 - Consider how well the 20-level cap works and consider keeping it.

3 - Consider unifying multiple characters in GW2 so that the more grindish activities such as leveling, titles, etc, can be made account based (but optional, so the few who like leveling can still do it) ie one character is level 1024, after hundreds of hours, and you can create another character who starts at level 1024 as well. If a character gains a level, the account gains a level. Thus reduce time spent leveling.

Personally if I discover there's level grind longer than the few hours used in Guild Wars, I won't even bother. That's what happens in WoW styled games, you spend hundreds of hours just reaching max level and when you do, there's no content besides raids. Much better the Gw1 style where you hit max level in a few hours (Factions, takes a bit longer in NF and Prophecies) and then get to play the game.

CronkTheImpaler · Jul 16, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

for once i agree with nearly all of this post, save point #3. something about getting one char to level ### and then the rest created start at that level seems .... well seems wrong, hinkie..something like that. i do however agree with virtually everything else stated.

id like a level increase i have to admit, just to have some sense of accomplishment for time spent. i know most people say time does not equal skill and thats true. but time does have some advantages when it comes to knowing the game, skill knowledge, enviroment familiarity etc.

the size of the level increase is another topic i for one am not equipped to tackle. ill leave that to the Guru types

just my 2 pennies!!!

Cronk

pamelf · Jul 16, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I agree with most of that post except (like the poster above me) number 3. I don't object with raising the level cap a little...like say to 50, but I firmly believe that a really high level cap will destroy a lot of what I like about Guild Wars...

I'd at least like Anet to speak out on how this higher level cap is to implemented and how it will differ from our current mode...

Stc95 · Jul 16, 2008, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Personally I do not want an unlimited level cap. But I wouldn't mind having it be more than 20. Nothing too high like.. idk 70+. I would settle for 60. Its on the high side, but if GW stays true to what it is now we will still be "entering" the game at the max level or if its high, at least a bigger/better portion of the game. Also I think another factor is that once someone hits the max level in a title normally they get all happy and woo! /dance! Well, think of leveling the same way, except there is more of a bonus because the way GW is designed the game "starts" when we hit the max level. So now there is more of a "woo I did something!" factor than right now. Because right now hitting level 20 isn't all woo-y because like you said, you can get there in a few hrs if you really tried.

Anet should definitely listen to the player's input. From the people I have heard and talked to they aren't on board for an unlimited or 100+ level cap. But then again, maybe Anet has some great idea that we do not know about that will make a 100+ level cap not seem so bad. Remember that we no pretty much NOTHING about GW2 and Anet knows EVERYTHING. Right now we have to be the good little children we are and trust that our Anet parents know whats best for us. Yea, listen to the kids, make them happy, but ultimately "the parent knows best."

Anet has made the game that we all love and spend way too much time playing. They know how to do their jobs. Yes, they've screwed up a couple many times, but we still play the game right? Let them do their job, cause they certainly know more about how to make a video game than we do, and worse comes to worse, we can QQ and complain until we get what we want, just like what we did in GW1.

~Stc95

Experienced · Jul 16, 2008, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Raise level cap to something like 50 . . . Not too hard to get to though.. >< one char? thats scrwed up

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 16, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

In my opinion 40 levels is a health maximum; I believe that's what they use in Dungeons and Dragons epic levels.

IE at 30 levels a character would be equivalent in power to Glint, Shiro Tagachi, etc (and face similar enemies) and at 40 they'd be around equivalent to, perhaps, Grenth/Dwayna/Lyssa/Melandru/Balthazar/Abaddon. And would face the very strongest enemies.

I'm also in favor of reducing the amount of time needed to do stuff and get stuff, but make it very hard to do so. Such that, say, a certain mission would be fairly quick; half an hour maybe, but extremely hard and would take many retries. Likewise I'd enjoy seeing leveling being fast but enemies a major challenge to defeat.

Artisan Archer · Jul 16, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I think they already said that there was gonna be a point where you can still level, but won't get 'stronger' (what attribute points are now).

pamelf · Jul 16, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

I think they already said that there was gonna be a point where you can still level, but won't get 'stronger' (what attribute points are now).

Which again raises the point, if we don't get stronger why have higher levels at all, especially since so many of us don't even want it higher.

gremlin · Jul 16, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Like others I agree with some of the op's post.

I'm not sure where the high or unlimited cap came from last I heard it was possibly going up a little for gw2 and some were hinting at 25 maybe 30.
High level cap means higher level power "I assume high health energy armour damage" and that means tougher and more creatures and pvp played at these higher levels.
The pve is sorted pretty much ie we do more damage and so do they so the level means nothing really.
What the effect would be on pvp is anyone's guess.

Strangely the elitism in parties I have observed has nothing to do with level and anyway the proposed leveling system for parties would remove that.
Observed elitism in gw1 is in 3 parts
1 Builds you don't have xyz skills so we don't want you
2 Emotes players judged on their pvp emote level for a pve party
3 Armour quite a while back players were turned down because they didn't have the latest inscribed armour.
The level of "Rudeness depends very much on whether the party aim is to have fun or just how badly they want a to achieve a specific aim, the longer they have been looking for a complete party the more frustrated they get.
I have been there many times with parties it took so long to assemble that people started leaving.

I have moved towards multiple characters for several reasons I did want one for each character class although I don't envision having the same foe gw2 at the moment but I will probably want one of each race.

I am not a player who needs or wants to have everything on every character so endless grind isn't for me.
I would grind if it gave me anything important but elite armour and great weapon skins do not protect more or damage more so forget it.
Would grind for money if I could spend it on my guild hall or a home for my character or for setting up a shop.
Those are worth grinding for.

Not going over titles again I have said enough of my views on those threads, and that horse is well dead and well flogged. "what a terrible saying"

It's something I have observed in the real world you get the majority of people who say nothing then you get the minority who spout off all the time on forums.
Its difficult to get the feel of the community either from forums or polls, forums have people like me who have opinions on everything and just need an audience and I don't know if my views are typical or not.
Polls can be influenced by the questions asked ie ask the right questions and get the answer you want.

**cosyfiep** · Jul 16, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

if there is no bonus for getting to a higher level there is no point in getting to that level---thus no point for having more levels than what would get you to max health/energy....

so higher level is ...pointless.

I agree with the OP as well...as one of those multi character people (I just cant play one character for so many hours---it gets boring and I would have quit gw long before factions came out if that had been the case!...hm would have saved myself lots of money as well seeing as I have the ce of factions and nf....)

Lykan · Jul 16, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Which again raises the point, if we don't get stronger why have higher levels at all, especially since so many of us don't even want it higher.

Yea why would people want that.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...perience+title

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=68733

pumpkin pie · Jul 16, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

you all failed to see what GW2 would be. my opinion is No-Level Cap = perfect.

There should not have a level cap in GW1 to begin with.

simple reason. NO ONE NEED TO REACH TOP LEVEL TO ENTER PVP.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jul 16, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

If the level cap is unlimited, people who don't focus all of their time into one char won't be able to get into groups. Sounds counter-productive for an MMO. It's stupid and pointless. 30-40 would be fine if they were going to push it up, but I'd keep it at 20. Perhaps 25 if they were planning bigger things.

fireflyry · Jul 16, 2008, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Which again raises the point, if we don't get stronger why have higher levels at all, especially since so many of us don't even want it higher.

Bigger e-peen as the OP mentioned.

Period.

Example:Non-linked title popularity before HoM.

Imo theres to much speculation on the lvl system to have a truly valid comment or opinion but I agree with most of what the OP has stated in terms of possible negative effects.

Trying to construct valid debate over speculation and tid-bits of non-confirmed info seems a bit pointless to me though as Anet have also stated they wish to continue with their "non-grind" philosophy which doesn't fit into the given hypothesis at all.

Also...things change and Anet Dev's often twist the truth when it comes to what will happen and what is actually put into action.It wouldn't surprise me if they did a total about face on much of the info they have released thus far.

The Only Warrior · Jul 16, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

infinite level cap is not only bad. its pure stupidity. instead of gameplay being based on skill, it would be based on how many time you cut school/work to grind levels into your chara just so you can say "ha! im lvl1337 and your lvl1336, you fail gg" might as well remove all skills and throw attribute points into a single sword, i mean, who would need a skill to do +200dmg if the 400dmg you do with normal attack auto-kills enemy? if they are going to raise lvl cap it should be no higher then 50. that allows balance plus a fair amount of levels, it all comes down to game design. one thing that really makes me hate a game is that point where you get past one part... then you start another part and you like... "wtf i gotta go grind for 4 hours before i can play the game i just bought!". if GW2 has an infinite level cap, or a cap that is something like lvl999, why even bother playing it if you dont have the time to max level? i for one would rather hear "your a noob cause your R4" then "you a noob cause im 2 levels higher then you!"...... Thats all i have to say about that.

Pleikki · Jul 16, 2008, 09:08 AM // 09:08

mm, i guess many original gw players prefer that cap at 20, but when they make it higher, ppl might come from WoW & Lotro & warhammer online & ace of conan etc because overall most played MMos are with high lvlcap because ppl like lvling they characters.

Shadowhaze · Jul 16, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

I agree with the OP as well. And yes, I'm also one of those people who like to play on multiple chars. If it took so long to lvl and I felt I had to do so to even be able to get into groups or progress in the game, sadly I most likely would become bored and move on to other games.

MithranArkanere · Jul 16, 2008, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Level won't be very important.

It would just add some armor and damage versus PvE monsters, it won't be considered in PvE.

It won't be as muh different as being able to show the number of skill points you have in GW1.

Shayne Hawke · Jul 16, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

As far as grinding levels in PvE, as long as I'd be 1-3 levels below cap by the time I finish the main storyline, it can't be that bad to just grind out the other levels. GW2 will probably have a number of new ways to do things, so grinding may not necessarily be so grindy for the first few characters.

Chthon · Jul 16, 2008, 11:41 AM // 11:41

1. "Unlimited" leveling is impossible in a computer game. All values must have a cap. You can make the cap something very large like 65535, or even 4,294 967,296, but you can't have "unlimited." The computer can't understand "unlimited."

2. I do not see ANY benefit to having a longer leveling path. None. Does anyone remember leveling in D2? You'd spend about a week joining run games over and over to get to 85 so you could sink your skill/attribute points and put on your gear. You basically didn't play the game for that first week on each character. What a pointless waste. I don't want that back.